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5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} </style> <![endif]--><![if mso 9]> <style> p.MsoNormal {margin-left:7.5pt;} </style> <![endif]><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="3074"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body bgcolor="#CCEECC" lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='tab-interval: .5in;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-right:15.0pt;margin-bottom: 7.5pt'> <div class=Section1> <h2><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";font-weight:normal'>Back to </span><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><a href="http://www.azargoshnasp.com/main.htm"><span class=SpellE>Azargoshnasp</span></a></span><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-language:FA; font-weight:normal'><o:p></o:p></span></h2> <h2><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></h2> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Friday, January 10, 2003 1:34 PM<br> <br> Greetings Professor <span class=SpellE>Diker</span>,<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p>It has been brought to my attention that you describe Parthian as a Turkish language in your website (or a related website):</p> <p align=center style='text-align:center'><a href="http://www.compmore.net/~tntr/crescent_starb.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.compmore.net/~tntr/crescent_starb.html</a></p> <p>This is linguistically incorrect. Parthian is not a Turkic language. It is an old western Iranian language that is also called &quot;Parthian Pahlavi&quot;. It is a very close relative of &quot;Middle Persian&quot; or &quot;<span class=SpellE>Sassanian</span> Pahlavi&quot;. The syntax and vocabulary of Parthian are recorded (e.g. <span class=SpellE>Dinkard</span>) and are of Iranian stock. The language of &quot;Parthian&quot; is actually called &quot;Pahlavi&quot; - deriving from &quot;<span class=SpellE>Partha</span>&quot; into &quot;<span class=SpellE>Pahla</span>&quot;. It is evident that the individual who hosts this website does not speak Pahlavi. </p> <p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Allow me to demonstrate this language and its Iranian character by way of example:<br> <em><b><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>&quot;haft <span class=SpellE>celan</span> <span class=SpellE>istaft</span> <span class=SpellE>polawad</span> <span class=SpellE>im</span> pad <span class=SpellE>dast</span> <span class=SpellE>grift</span>&quot;</span></b></em> <br> which means <br> &quot;the seven daggers of hard steel that I have grasped with my hand&quot;. <br> Many of the words are common in modern Persian (<span class=SpellE>e.g</span> <span class=SpellE>dast</span> - hand; <span class=SpellE>Polawad</span> (<span class=SpellE>poolad</span> in Persian) - steel; - <span class=SpellE>grift</span> (<span class=SpellE>gerefet</span> in Persian) - grasped). &quot;Haft&quot; is the number seven; clearly Indo-European - the Turkish counting system is entirely different. For an introduction to Pahlavi, you may wish to refer to the following works by Professor Mackenzie<span class=GramE>:</span><br> <br> <span class=SpellE>MacKenzie</span>, D.N. (1967). <span class=GramE>Notes on the transcription of Pahlavi BSOAS, 30, 17-29 <br> <span class=SpellE>MacKenzie</span>, D.N. (1971).</span> <span class=GramE>A Concise Pahlavi Dictionary.</span> London: <span class=SpellE>Routledge</span>.</p> <p>Variations of the language of &quot;<span class=SpellE>Pahalvi</span>&quot; are still spoken among Iranians. The Kurds of Iran as well as many Kurds of Turkey and Iraq speak variations of Pahlavi. Turks cannot understand Kurdish and require interpreters to communicate with Kurds who speak <span class=SpellE>Sorani</span> and/or <span class=SpellE>Kurmanjii</span> (variations of <span class=SpellE>Pahalvi</span> amongst Kurds). The people of northern Iran speak variations of <span class=SpellE>Pahalvi</span> as well - <span class=SpellE>Mazandarani</span> and <span class=SpellE>Gilani</span> for example. <span class=SpellE>Baluchi</span> in southeast Iran also has Pahlavi elements (e.g. <span class=SpellE>Ahsen</span> &quot;Iron&quot; or &quot;<span class=SpellE>Eisen</span>&quot; in English and <span class=SpellE>Ahsan</span> in Pahlavi - &quot;<span class=SpellE>Ahsen</span>&quot; is not &quot;Iron&quot; in Turkish).</p> <p>You may wish to visit Iran and visit numerous Parthian sites or the victory inscriptions of <span class=SpellE>Shapur</span> I over the Romans and examine this language. The main academic reference used by Pan-<span class=SpellE>Turanian</span> nationalists to claim a Turkish identity for the <span class=SpellE>Parthians</span> is Rawlinson who wrote in the late 19th Century. Linguistic studies and primary historical and archeological sources have long since discredited Rawlinson's claim - especially since he <br> (a) did not speak Parthian/Pahlavi and <br> (b) mistakenly described Iranian names as Turkic. <br> For example he argued that &quot;<span class=SpellE>dat</span>&quot; or &quot;dad&quot; (given or provided by in Iranian languages) is Turkish - there is not such root in Turkish linguistics with that meaning.</p> <p>You also claim <span class=SpellE>Soghdian</span> as Turkish and reject Richard Nelson Frye's studies. Professor Frye is a well respected scholar with over 4 decades of international class research. He is well known for his studies of linguistics and is a world authority in the ancient languages of Iran and Central Asia. I suspect that you do not speak <span class=SpellE>Soghdian</span> or read <span class=SpellE>Soghdian</span>.</p> <p>If not, you may first wish to have an introduction to the linguistics of <span class=SpellE>Soghdian</span> and its east Iranian characteristics - kindly refer to A.J. <span class=SpellE>Arberry's</span> &quot;Legacy of Persia&quot; starting on page 187.<br> <span class=SpellE><span class=GramE>Arberry</span></span><span class=GramE>.</span> <span class=GramE>A.J. (1953).</span> <span class=GramE>The Legacy of Persia.</span> Oxford: Clarendon Press. <br> Read Chapter 7 (pages 174-198). The linguistics of Parthian/Pahlavi <span class=GramE>are</span> also described and how these are related to the modern Persian of today. </p> <p><span class=SpellE>Soghdian</span>, like other older East Iranian languages predate Turkic languages by at <span class=GramE>least a</span> 1000 years in Central Asia. Professor Frye has recently published a book on the history of Central Asia and how Turkish expansion eventually displaced and/or absorbed Iranian peoples such as the <span class=SpellE>Scyhtians</span> (<span class=SpellE>Saka</span>), <span class=SpellE>Alans</span>, <span class=SpellE>Sarmatians</span> and <span class=SpellE>Soghdians</span>. Technically, I am not totally correct regarding the <span class=SpellE>Soghdians</span> being displaced since some of their descendants may still survive live in <span class=SpellE>Tajikestan</span> where the main spoken language is <span class=SpellE>Tajiki</span> (very close to Persian) as well as a language named &quot;<span class=SpellE>Yaghnoubi</span>&quot; - which I have not studied, but which is (if I am not mistaken) Iranian. The book by Professor Frye is<span class=GramE>:</span><br> <br> Frye, R.N. (1996). The Heritage of Central Asia: From Antiquity to the Turkish Expansion. Princeton: Markus Wiener Publishers.</p> <p>Older Iranian languages of Central Asia are commonly known to us as <span class=SpellE>Saka</span> (Scythian in western sources - especially Ukraine area) and later <span class=SpellE>Sarmatian</span>/Alan languages. Turks came in waves over the centuries into Central Asia as invaders, pushed out of the east Mongolian region by Chinese military activity. Turks may derive from a people known to us &quot;<span class=SpellE>Shaing-Nou</span>&quot;; although some Chinese sources mention the word &quot;<span class=SpellE>Tueh</span>-Chi&quot; (helmet) - which may have been one of the possible sources of the term &quot;Turk&quot;.</p> <p>The <span class=SpellE>Turco</span>-Hun presence was fully felt by the <span class=SpellE>Sassanian</span> Empire in the 5th Century AD - the Iranian peoples of Central Asia were simply driven out, eliminated or absorbed. As noted by Newark (p.65) &quot;The Huns destroyed the realms of both the <span class=SpellE>Alans</span> and the <span class=SpellE>Sarmatians</span>&quot;. <span class=GramE>The <span class=SpellE>Soghdians</span> and some of the <span class=SpellE>Saka</span> survived by retreating in <span class=SpellE>Nagoro-Bedakhshan</span>, Western Afghanistan and <span class=SpellE>Seistan</span> (ancient Eastern Persia).</span> The <span class=SpellE>Ossetians</span> of the Caucasus are direct descendants of the <span class=SpellE>Alans</span> and their language has no connection to Turkish. They retreated into the Caucasus <span class=GramE>mountains</span> to safeguard their language and culture from being absorbed into later waves of <span class=SpellE>Hunnic</span>, Turkic and Mongolian invaders. In fact, despite over 1000 years of separation from Iran proper, many <span class=SpellE>Ossetian</span> words (as well as syntax) have cognates in both Persian and Kurdish.</p> <p>Not to be outdone, your website claims that the word &quot;<span class=SpellE>Saka</span>&quot; is Turkish. The term &quot;<span class=SpellE>Issyk</span>&quot; has no linguistic or historical link (that I know of) to the word &quot;<span class=SpellE>Saka</span>&quot; - which has existed since recorded history. Your reference has not scholastically demonstrated any Turkish link. One of the old meanings of &quot;<span class=SpellE>Saka</span>&quot; that I have found is &quot;our friend&quot; in old <span class=SpellE>Achaemenid</span> Persian, although other Iranian meanings have been found as well. The term &quot;<span class=SpellE>Issyk</span>&quot; has never been consistently used to refer to the <span class=SpellE>Saka</span> (or Scythians) by either Persians or non-Persians Greeks (see Herodotus). Allow me to demonstrate the Iranian linguistic character of the names of the <span class=SpellE>Saka</span> confederations during <span class=SpellE>Achaemenid</span> times<span class=GramE>:</span><br> <span class=SpellE>Saka</span> <span class=SpellE>Haumavarga</span> - The <span class=SpellE>Saka</span> <span class=SpellE>bearinng</span> the <span class=SpellE>Hauma</span> - <span class=SpellE>Hauma</span> is the sacred drink of the Zoroastrians and ancient <span class=SpellE>Areyan</span> Hindus of India.<br> <span class=SpellE>Saka</span> <span class=SpellE>TigraKhauda</span> - The <span class=SpellE>Saka</span> with the pointed hats. &quot;<span class=SpellE>Khauda</span>&quot; for example is middle Persian (Pahlavi) &quot;<span class=SpellE>Khaud</span>&quot; and present day &quot;<span class=SpellE>Khood</span>&quot; or &quot;<span class=SpellE>Kolah-Khood</span>&quot; in modern Persian (Helmet).<br> <span class=SpellE>Saka</span> <span class=SpellE>Paradraya</span> - The <span class=SpellE>Saka</span> from beyond the sea. Para is Indo-European (and <span class=GramE>it's</span> subset Iranian) for &quot;beyond&quot; (there in no such root in Turkish or indeed any Altaic languages that I know of). Certain dialects in <span class=SpellE>Khorassan</span> still seem to use the word &quot;<span class=SpellE>para</span>&quot; in that context. &quot;<span class=SpellE>Draya</span>&quot; is sea (Persian &quot;Darya&quot; - which is also a word loaned into modern Turkish as &quot;<span class=SpellE>Derya</span>&quot;). </p> <p>For further information I humbly suggest that you refer to: <br> <span class=SpellE>Gamkrelidze</span> &amp; <span class=SpellE>Ivanov</span> (1984). <span class=SpellE>Iindo</span>-European and the Indo-Europeans: A Reconstruction and Historical Typological Analysis of a Proto-Language and Proto-Culture (Parts I and II). <span class=GramE>Tbilisi State University.</span><br> <br> Mallory, J.P. (1989). In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language Archeology and Myth. <span class=GramE>Thames and Hudson.</span> Read Chapter 2 and see 51-53 for a quick reference.<br> <br> <span class=GramE>Newark, T. (1985).</span> The Barbarians: Warriors and wars of the Dark Ages. <span class=SpellE>Blandford</span>: New York. See pages 65, 85, 87, 119-139. <br> Renfrew, C. (1988). <span class=SpellE>Aecheology</span> and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European origins. <span class=GramE>Cambridge University Press.</span> </p> <p>I also seriously doubt the claim that Sumerian is a Turkish language since no Turkic speakers were remotely close to the later-Persian realm or let alone the Middle East at the time of the Sumerians. In addition, the time element is in error - Sumerians pre-date ancient Babylon - Turks appear in historical records thousands of years later. I am of course no expert in that area and will leave this in the hands of other scholars. In addition, I (along with many specialists and scholars) would seriously question your claims of Hittite and Cimmerian being Turkish.</p> <p>You are citing your book TRK <span class=SpellE>Dili'nin</span> Bes Bin <span class=SpellE>Yili</span> (&quot;Five Thousand Years of <span class=SpellE>theTurkish</span> Language&quot;) as your reference source. I fully respect your expertise in Geophysical Engineering (in which you have a Doctorate and are very well informed and experienced), however I am also humbly aware that you do not have any formal and/or academic training or expertise in ancient languages and/or archeology - nor (and correct me if I am wrong) have you visited and/or engaged in excavation/study of sites in Iran, Afghanistan, <span class=SpellE>Tajikestan</span> or <span class=SpellE>Nagorno-Bedakhshan</span>.</p> <p>Finally, Professor <span class=SpellE>Diker</span>, I may have read that portion of your website <span class=GramE>incorrectly,</span> however it does seem that your book claims that it has &quot;proven&quot; that all languages have their roots in Turkish. I am certain that no <span class=SpellE>serrious</span> scholar will entertain the suggestion that the world's mother language is Turkish. Excellent research is already underway in this area and you may be interested in <span class=SpellE>refering</span> to the texts below as an introduction: <br> <span class=SpellE>Ruhlen</span>, M. (1994). <span class=GramE>The Origin of Language.</span> New York: John Wiley &amp; Sons.</p> <p>Provides the linguistic and genetic bases of languages and how attempts are being made at &quot;reconstruction&quot;. This book clearly distinguishes between Turkic and other Indo-European languages such as those of the Iranian family (e.g. Parthian/<span class=SpellE>Pahalvi</span>) - also read p.25 (Kurdish). <br> <span class=SpellE>Cavalli</span>-Sforza, L. L. (2000). <span class=GramE>Genes, Peoples and Languages.</span> New York: North Point Press. <br> This text provides a good summary to the series of Italian studies (spanning, I believe, close to 2 decades) in which the relationships between genetics and languages have researched. Note that <span class=SpellE>Cavalli</span>-Sforza's works indicate an African (not Turkish) origin for modern humans as quite possibly languages as well. </p> <p>If you have any questions regarding modern or classical Iranian languages, feel free to contact me. Note that many individuals on the forwarded list are themselves scholars who are well informed on Iranian studies and are aware of the Iranian basis of the Parthian language. </p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Regards<br> <br> Dr. <span class=SpellE>Kaveh</span> <span class=SpellE>Farrokh</span> (PhD) <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:0in'><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><a href="mailto:manuvera@aol.com">manuvera@aol.com</a><br> <br style='mso-special-character:line-break'> <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-family: "Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><br> <a href="http://azargoshnasp.net">http://azargoshnasp.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </body> </html>